Transcript of Uncle Ed. Show #317 First aired 5/5/01. Subject of show occurred 4/4/01 in Ames, Iowa, at Iowa State University campus, in front of the Library


Preaching: Love, or Law? ----------- Feedback Box:

How to Preach: of "Love" alone, or also of the Judgments of God?

(Which preaching shows the greater love?)

Introduction to the Transcript:

In this show you see interaction between:

* College campus Relativists and the most dogmatic of Bible-thumping preachers. You see them interact with each other in public, and then you see them explain themselves further in one-on-one interviews.

* Coat Hanger-Carrying abortion advocates, and John Wayneish "street preachers" who just don't seem to know how to be "polite".

* A "street preacher" explaining, to over a hundred college students gathered on the library steps, why the killing of an abortionist is a cause for celebration, and nearly a dozen Coat Hanger-Carrying murder lovers who, incredibly, raise no objection to this line of reasoning, though they are standing only a few feet from the preacher, and though they interrupt for far more trivial reasons! Neither does anyone in the crowd object; there is even light applause at some of the preacher's most "outrageous" points!

Points covered in this show:

<> Proof that abortion supporters don't champion the law; they champion, exclusively, the murder of innocent babies.

<> Do those "terrible, gross, disgusting" pictures of dismembered victims of abortion serve any useful purpose in Preaching the Gospel?

<> Does everyone have a right to believe anything? And if so, does any preacher have a right to tell anyone that what they have chosen to believe may destroy them?

After you have seen the transcript, you will surely want to see the tape; these scenes are just two incredible to believe in print, until you can see them for yourself in living color. But even if you saw the tape first, you will surely want the transcript, so you can read every word of dialogue, some of which is hard to hear because people are talking at the same time, or because the event was outside, without amplification, on a windy day. The transcript also gives background facts, and editorial reflections, not given in the show.

The show begins with its standard opening: Uncle Ed. appears under a spotlight to applause, with his Leachbone, and counts off "One, Two, Two and a half" while the title overlays "The Uncle Ed. Show". Then a camera shows the whole band playing the theme. Cut to 3-year-old Blake "playing" a drum set while the title overlays "Helping you kick the TV habit". Normally stuff goes on like this for two minutes, but for this show it fades to the subject of our show.

Scene: students on the steps of the Iowa State University Library, listening.

Drew Heiss, preaching: "First off, women who kill their children are doing it because they are selfish murderers."

Title: "'Street Preacher' Drew Heiss, at ISU"

Drew: "Because they're whores, and they like to sleep around. The pictures (of dismembered unborn babies) are scary."

Title: Preaching: Love, or Judgment?

Drew: "Am I scaring you with those pictures?"

Title: First aired 5/5/2001

Drew: "They're scared, because they don't want the truth to be known that their 'choice' is to murder children! They don't want the truth to be known that they're whores, they like to sleep around, and they're murderers! They have no problem murdering their innocent children. What kind of woman murders her own child? What kind of woman murders her own child?"

Student standing among a group of about 7 pro-murder protesters: "Hey, you know what? You're preaching about /(scene edit)/ You know what? To lead me to Jesus, to lead me to Christianity..."

Title: ISU Student Amanda Green

"'re not going to do it by saying its you're going to murder other people. (sic) This is awful, to say that it's terrible for a man to sleep with another man, and you're going to Hell. If you teach me about love..." (Amanda is interrupted by a fellow protester; scene changes.)

Uncle Ed: (in front of backdrop consisting of an aluminum printing plate from which his anti-sodomite campaign flier from May, 2000 was printed, although that little tidbit is not given during the show)

"Should Christians preach love, alone? Should Christians ever preach the laws, and judgments, of God?

"That became the topic of the day in several minds when a group of about 30, who call themselves Missionaries to the Unborn, came from Milwaukee to Ames, Iowa April 4, and a few of them preached in front of the library on the Ames campus. These students heard preaching that day like they, nor probably their parents, had ever heard preaching in their lives! They hung around quite a while, listening, as two of the Missionaries, who call themselves "street preachers", took turns for about 4 hours preaching to the crowd of students who swelled at times to possibly 200.

"You have already heard some pretty strong accusations by street preacher Drew Heiss, and you have watched ISU student Amanda Green attempt to explain to Drew why his abrupt approach won't convert anybody. As soon as I quit talking you will see how Drew responds to Amanda. Then you will see an interview I had with Amanda where I give her a bit more of a chance to explain herself than Drew did. She didn't like it when Drew called her a whore, so we'll go back and analyze exactly what Drew said. Then I want to give you a fuller sample of vintage street preaching, both by Drew, and his partner, Chuck Spignola, whose name you may remember from the news a couple of years ago, when he climbed the flagpole at the Ohio State Capitol to pull down a sodomite flag which the governor had permitted to fly on Gay Pride Day. After that, you will see interviews with other students, to see whether their reactions support Amanda's predictions.

"You will also see interviews with the missionaries themselves, where they try to explain their approach. By the end of our show you should have enough information to decide for yourself how Christians should preach: of love alone, or also of the laws and judgments of God.

"Now here is Drew Heiss, followed by Amanda."

(Show "Credits" rolled during the middle of this commentary.)

Drew: (While Amanda watches, while holding a coat hangar with a sign on it, standing with the other pro-murder protesters) "She says, 'you know, you're going about this all wrong. You're talking about Jesus, and you're calling people 'whores', and you're showing pictures; you're doing this all wrong. If you want to draw people to Jesus (thumps Bible) you gotta do it differently, sir. Is that what you're saying?" (Looks at Amanda and waits for her response.)

Amanda: "Well, you know, if you want to be an arrogant organization...." (She is cut off by her fellow protesters, all talking at once.)

Drew: One at a time. One at a time now. (Chaos continues. Scene changes.)

Drew: If I want to present the Gospel of Jesus Christ by sharing with you the reality of Hell, if I want to share with you the tragedy of abortion by showing what the victim looks like, that's an eye-opener. Many of these women probably never saw that picture, and they're shocked. And they're saying that it's a scary picture. You shouldn't use those messages to present the Gospel.

"I beg to differ. That's what we need. You need to see those pictures of mangled bodies. You need to know, when you hear women talk about 'pro-choice': that vivid, graphic image needs to come to your mind when you hear the term 'pro-choice'. You need to see that baby. 'Pro Choice!' Picture that baby. 'Pro Choice'! Picture that baby. Now whenever you hear that term, 'pro choice', you think about what that choice is. It's the 'choice' to murder an innocent child. 'Women's Rights!' The right to murder? C'mon. What about the woman who's being murdered? That little baby girl who's being ripped apart? What about that little baby boy that's being ripped apart?" (Scene change)

Uncle Ed: What's your name?

Amanda: (Interviewed by herself, apart from the group of protesters) My name's Amanda Green, and I'm a student at Iowa State University.

Uncle Ed: And what were you trying to say out there to those people?

Amanda: All I was trying to say -- I wasn't trying to say that abortion is right; I was not trying to say that their message was absolutely wrong. What I was trying to say is that if I'm going to turn towards Christianity..."

Title: 1. You draw more flies with honey.

Amanda: "...if I'm going to go to (sic) the Jesus Christ that is spoken of in the Bible, it's not going to be through these pictures, and it's not going to be through a hateful message. I think that they could get their message across a lot easier and they'd be a lot more effective, if they spoke of a Loving Lord. Because as a Christian person, it makes me feel kind of betrayed that this is what is being said. Because I think a lot of people are being turned away towards (sic) Christianity because it (sic) doesn't accept everybody. (Scene edit)

"It's been like a Hellfire and Brimstone message that they've been preaching today, and I think they'd be a lot more received (sic) if they'd taught about a loving God. And then you get people in that way. You teach people about how great He is, and then you explain 'well OK this is how I feel about this.' And you explain the other parts of the Bible. You can't just come out and scream about all of this evil, awful stuff in the Bible, without backing it up with a loving Christ. Because some people, you know, some people, this is all they're going to get. There are people here from other countries that don't know everything that Christianity is about. There are people that just aren't very aware; they haven't been brought up in a church. And they have a right to know. But they're not being told the truth here. I don't think. Or maybe not the whole picture, I guess is what I'm saying. And I think that's said. So." (scene edit)

"I'm not going to say what my beliefs on everything are, but I do believe in a God. I believe in Jesus Christ as my savior. And I think they need to teach the Love of the Bible, and the acceptance and forgiveness, more than they preach about the hate, and about how scary this stuff is, and about these evil people that they're talking of (sic) today. I think this is a way wrong message, and (Title: the rest of her sentence:) I feel betrayed as a Christian that these people are standing up and representing me."

Uncle Ed: "Representing ME?! Those preachers made no pretense of representing Amanda Green; I think it was plain to everybody that day that if their intent was to represent anybody, it certainly wasn't to represent any known human; their concern was with representing Jesus Christ.

"Amanda is right that there are unthinking people who judge by association. Such people see that you have one thing in common with a jerk they know. Maybe you go to the same church as the jerk. Or speak the same accent, or have the same skin color. So such unthinking people assume you, too, must be a jerk. This is called prejudice. I suggest you save yourself a lot of grief and don't even TRY to impress such people. Try to impress God, and life will be much simpler. God wants to associate with us. Even with YOU. Even with ME!

(Titles duplicate the Scriptures which Ed. quotes)

"Colossians 3:17 even pleads with all of us to do everything we do in Jesus' Name! God knows unthinking people will judge Him by us! But God loves us that much, and God also knows some people don't really respond well to the truth, or common sense, or clear thinking. Some actually prefer lies. Some even prefer Hell over Heaven. Not even God tries to impress them. Don't think you can. There were people in Bible times who judged preachers by their individual styles, the way Amanda does. So there are a couple of Scriptures that give God's perspective of it. I don't think these Scriptures exactly show that Amanda is foolish to have her concern; I think rather, that Amanda's concern may be legitimate from a human perspective, but these Scriptures show the perspective of a God who loves us so much, that He is willing to suffer shame for the sake of associating with us. Just as parents are proud to be associated with their children, though the intelligence of children is really not even in the same league with their parents.

"Philippians 1:15-18 says "Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will: 16 The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds: 17 But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel. 18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice. Here God acknowledges that some preachers have malicious motives for preaching, and yet God would rather have them preach than stop preaching! Truly amazing!

"Mark 9:38-40 says And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is on our part.

"Well, I can go along with letting a Christian go if he's doing miracles. But Jesus lets a whole lot more people in His circle than miracle workers. He lets in anyone who isn't actually fighting Him! I don't know if I can go along with that! How about you? I've spent some of my best years condemning Christians who aren't doing enough, and now Jesus wants me to be grateful for any Christian who isn't actually fighting me? What kind of man IS this Jesus?

"I'm afraid I've got some real bad news for some of you who can't imagine any responsible Christian coming up with some of the positions I have taken: we're on the same team.

"Here's one more passage, about judging Christians who preach the Gospel: Paul is talking about perhaps the two greatest doctrinal controversies of all time, that have divided the world's religions: the rules about eating meat, and upon what day to worship. Paul concluded that even these major controversies are not the yardstick by which God judges the hearts of men.

"Romans 14:1-4 1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. 2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. 3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. 4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

"You know, I hesitate to quote that Scripture, which seems to support Relativism, without taking an hour with other related Scriptures. But although I cannot resolve this issue in this show, I will simply note the irony of judging this preacher for the crime of judging."

(Time: 13 minutes, 35 seconds. Scene change.)

Amanda: (Interviewed by herself, apart from the group of protesters) I'm not speaking for Planned Parenthood, I'm speaking just as a single Iowa State student who wants to be heard just as much as him. I'm not in a group of women. I'm not, you know, speaking for all Lesbians, I'm not speaking for all prochoice women, or all Christians, I'm just speaking for one single person. And I think he needs to -- well, I think a lot of the people talking need to understand that there's a lot of other viewpoints out there, and they need to be heard and discussed rationally, rather than just yelled out to a crowd and not accepted.

"I'm not standing out here saying, you know, I want babies to be murdered, and I'm -- but he's, he is putting me in that light, and that is unfair, because that's not the light I want to be put in. That's what I want people to see me as. But because he didn't give anybody else time to talk, that's what we're kind of stuck with."

[Editorial reflections not shared on film: This raises higher the question: what does Amanda believe about abortion? She had been standing with the pro-murder group, holding a coat hanger with the rest; she had told Drew he shouldn't be accusing people of murder or of being whores; later when a young man asks her if she really believes in her heart if it is OK to kill a child in her womb, she says she won't answer because that is not important; and here she says it's "unfair" to "put" her in the "light" of "wanting babies to be murdered". So, then, in what light would it be "fair" to cast her position? Given her later answer to the young man, that what is important is that everybody have the right to decide for themselves what to believe, she surely defends the legal right to abortion. So it would appear the only thing she finds "unfair" in the characterization under discussion is calling the abortions she defends "murder".

[But then a further irony manifests: if someone makes the "decision" to believe abortion is just fine, she is grateful they have exercised that right and have not been hindered from approaching her "accepting" gospel. But if someone like Drew makes the "decision" to believe abortion is murder, and that people ought to be warned against it, she takes an hour of her time to stand with a coat hanger pleading with a crowd in opposition to Drew, to shield from "hate" the one who decided abortion is fine.

[Is it that she thinks it would be fine for Drew to decide abortion is murder, so long as he doesn't tell others they are wrong to disagree? Is it telling others they are wrong that is wrong? But that is just what Amanda did with all her passion, all her energy, and at every opportunity: she declared Drew was wrong.

[This is not just about Amanda, I hope the viewer realizes. If Amanda were the only college student in the world with her views, they would be uninteresting. But to the contrary, her views are an articulate expression of the prevailing view. Right down to the last irony and contradiction. What is even more instructive is to try to imagine how a more articulate proponent of Relativism could have presented a more rational theology. Because when you try to imagine it, you realize you can't. The contradictions Amanda faced are not through any deficiency in Amanda, but are inherent in Relativism. They cannot be resolved by anyone, no matter how intelligent. At least I haven't yet heard anyone succeed.

[I truly hope Amanda will not be offended by all this scrutiny, because I feel the type of affection for Amanda as I feel for my own daughter. In fact, when my own daughter was Amanda's probable age, she labored for I'm not sure how long under the same mindset Amanda did. I'm not sure how easy for her was all my scrutiny of her views, but when an issue was raised I always responded as openly and intelligently as I knew how, and Cyndi always responded honestly, and humbly put up with me. We have not yet reached consensus on every important issue, but the consensus we have enjoyed overwhelms what differences remain. In an age when parents and children are not generally characterized as being very close, Cyndi and I are, to a degree beyond my happiest expectations. I hope Amanda will accept my affection for her in the same spirit, and will not be hindered by resentment from communicating with me further. (At this point the tape is at 14 minutes, 44 seconds.)]

"That we're all these Lesbians that are just, you know, terrible, feminist women who are raising our hands saying, you know, kill babies, kill babies. Well, that's not the entire story. That's not all we stand for. And that's not all I stand for. (Scene edit)

"I find being called a 'whore' -- he doesn't know who I am. I don't think he has a right to say anything about me as far as that's concerned."

Uncle Ed: "Refresh my memory. He accused you?"

Amanda: He accused, he looked at the group of women up there, and he, and actually there was a male out there too, and he gestured to all of us, and said 'these whores, these', and he doesn't know me, he doesn't know what I believe in, because he didn't choose to listen to what I believe. So him calling me a whore, totally put him down in my book, and I'm not going to want to listen who speaks about Christianity that -- if I'm going to associate Jesus Christ with these people, that's sad, because I think it's going to turn people off of Jesus Christ, because it's been..." (Scene change)

Title: Indeed, Drew said ALL women who commit abortion are unmarried, when he should (at most) have said "most". Here is how he said it:

(Time: 15:54)

Drew, preaching to crowd: OK, first off, women that kill their children are doing it because they are selfish murderers. Because they're whores, and they like to sleep around. The pictures (of dismembered unborn babies) are scary. Am I scaring you with those pictures? They're scared, because they don't want the truth to be known that their 'choice' is to murder children! They don't want the truth to be known that they're whores, they like to sleep around, and they're murderers! They have no problem murdering their innocent children. What kind of woman murders her own child? What kind of woman murders her own child?" (Scene change)

Amanda: (to Drew, who has stopped preaching long enough to listen to Amanda, who is still standing with the coat hanger crowd) "Why don't you support an organization like Birthright, that accepts somebody with loving arms, that goes into it, and says, you know, you have made choices, and we're going to work it out together..."

Drew: (interrupting) Why can't I do it this way? Why don't you like the way I do it?

Amanda: (Looking behind her at a poster, [not seen at this point in the show] held by one of the missionaries quoting the first half of Genesis 9:6 "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man." Because I don't think you're making a big difference.

Drew: Is that why you're concerned, because I'm not making a difference?

Woman with coat hanger: (Yelling at the same time Drew made the last reply, making it almost impossible to hear the dialogue between Drew and Amanda) Because calling people a whore, and telling people that homosexuals should be put to death, is not the correct way.

Amanda: (While the other woman is still yelling) No! All I'm saying... (Scene change)

Amanda: (Alone, interviewed by Uncle Ed.) A person who is in that position...

Title: 3. I care because I personally know people who have been devastated by this kind of preaching

...I have a feeling, is more scared than anything, and needs to be taught about the Bible in a loving way. And needs to be approached that way. I think it would be terrifying to have to be in that position, and I've known people who were in that position, and it's been really close to home, and so I don't think these pictures are really doing any good whatsoever (Scene edit)

[Editorial digression: notice how she uses "and" instead of a period in the last paragraph, creating one long sentence out of several short ones? Which of course is the way people talk; but it just occurred to me, that helps me understand how often "and" (Greek: "kai") is used in the Gospels. In the original Greek, there was no punctuation. There weren't even upper case or lower case letters. There weren't even spaces between words! So conjunctions were used the way we use periods. This sounds unmanageable, but once I did a simple experiment: I deleted the spaces from a paragraph of English, and found I could still read it almost as easily!]

Uncle Ed: What specifically seemed hateful? Was it something he said, or was it that he didn't say -- talk more about forgiveness?

Amanda: Actually, it was the -- I saw the sign that said something about when a man lays with another man, and it was something about how they will go to Hell, they were going to be damned. Something like that. I find that very hateful...." (Scene change)

Uncle Ed.'s voice over Leviticus 20:13, shown over a backdrop of a concert stage. The scripture: If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Uncle Ed's voice: Hmmm. This is hateful? But God says it. Who loves more than God? What doctrine is more loving than God's Word? I would worry about a philosophy that claims to be kinder than God. Satan told Eve he was kinder than God. I would worry that a philosophy that says Leviticus 20:13 is not loving, is a philosophy that does not care if precious souls fall into a pit.

[Editorial reflections, not shared in the show: if my previous narration is not received, perhaps it would be because of an assumption that God is wrong; that there is no pit to fall into; that there is no objectively discernable "abomination". This assumption would have to say that AIDS is not a pit, not to mention lesser sexual diseases. It would have to deny that the behavior of AIDS victims deliberately continuing to infect others, by having sex with them without warning them, is typical of sodomites, or that the law has any business interfering with such wanton commission of serial murder. But God knew, even before mankind understood sexual diseases, that for the protection of society from such terrible diseases, mass-murdering infected sodomites can be stopped by one way: execution. Are today's laws more loving, that permit these mass murderers to continue infecting the innocent along with the guilty at will, while only their critics are villified?]

(Time: 18:10)

Title: Now let's hear some PREACHING!

Drew: When is it wrong? Legally, it's wrong when the baby is outside the womb. You can kill your child up to the day that he's born. You can kill youre child. You know what partial birth abortion is, folks? It's when the doctor reaches inside the womb and turns the baby around, so he can pull the baby out feet first...

(Two women are shown nodding in agreement with the facts Drew alleges; these women are perhaps 12' from the coat hanger crowed.)

...His hand is still inside the woman, the baby is alive and well, he takes a pair of scissors. He jabs it in the back of the baby's head. He opens that scissors up to cause a gaping hole in the back of the head of the baby. He sticks a suction machine inside the skull of the baby, and sucks out the baby's brains, killing that child. Then crushes the skull of that baby, so he can yank that dead baby out. That's what partial birth abortion is, and that is what these women support. They support barbarous acts of murder.

Coat hanger woman yells, covering up Drew: What are you supporting? What are you supporting by that sign back there? (Referring to the Genesis 9:6 sign, showing the first half of the verse.)

[Editorial reflections not shared in the show: Here is what is astonishing about the reference to that sign: prior to this, Chuck Spignola had explained, logically and persuasively, why the killing of an abortionist was a cause for rejoicing! (This will be shown later.) It was astonishing then that there were interruptions, but none that addressed Chuck's line of reasoning! And now, this coat hanger woman, who heard Chuck's reasoning very clearly, can think of nothing more incriminating about the Missionaries' message than to complain about a poster with a Scripture on it?! Granted, the woman may have been thinking how that Scripture supported Chuck's reasoning. And she may have thought that the lengthiest objection she could squeeze in between Drew's words was a quick allusion to the sign. But one does not challenge one's application of Scripture by challenging Scripture, without, well, without attacking Scripture. Combine this with the fact that she did not object with a single word while Chuck spoke, and we have an ominous theory: that what really disturbed this woman, more than anything else that day, was not these men, but God Himself!]


(Several voices covering up each other.)

Drew: Take a good look, folks.

Woman: Yeah, take a good look at us. Ignore him.

Drew: Women who support the murder of innocent children.

Woman: I see men up here, too.

Drew: (words lost as Drew walked away, facing the other way) accidentally all the way. Do you support murdering that baby then? (gesturing towards the coat hanger women) What's the difference? What's the difference? That baby's head is out, what's the difference? The law! They champion the law of our land, don't they? They're championing the laws of our land. They're saying if that baby's head is out, then it's against the law. But if that baby's head is inside the womb, it's perfectly legal, and they support it. What's the difference? A baby is a baby either way!

You know, in 1972, abortion was against the law. (Pointing to the coat hanger women) Do you think they supported the law then? Huh? Is the law right now, or was the law right then? What is it? Is their champion the law? No! Their champion is the murdering of innocent children! That's what they stand for!

(Time 20:54)

And they're so afraid of those pictures! Those gross, terrible pictures (sobs loudly and sarcastically) Don't look at 'em! (sob) Yeah! Innocent children that have been murdered. They hate it! You know why? Because it's the truth.

You know what they did in Germany, after the Allies won? They took the citizens that lived in the towns of Auschwitz and the other termination camps. They marched them through those camps to show them what they were. That's what we're doing today.

(Interruption from audience: Yeah, that's what you want to do with gay people, right?)

Don't look at those pictures! They're scary! Don't think about the children! (Something in falsetto about children.) (Scene change, to an earlier message.)

Drew: Now folks, many students here enjoy their fornication. Enjoy their sin. They don't want to repent. They don't want to put their sin behind them and start living a righteous life. They're not scared of Hell, where there is torment forever. And when you stand before God on your Judgment Day, you'll have to give an account for your every deed. If you've never been forgiven of your sin, God's angels will cast you in the fires of Hell. That's your just judgment. You've violated His Law, you've broken the Ten Commandments, and you will pay for your crime.

But many of you realize that Jesus died for you. You cling to that. "Jesus died for me." Well if you continue in your sin, and you say "Jesus died for me", and you go out and fornicate, you go out and lie, you commit all forms of sin, you're not living for Jesus. You're living for yourself. The Bible says you need to live for the one who died for you. His Name is Jesus. You stand before God, you've been fornicating, you've been clinging to the phrase "Jesus died for me", you'll be cast into Hell. You've been trampling under foot the very blood that was shed on the cross for you. And it's a shame for the Christian Church across America that our churches are filled with people like that. Our churches are filled with people that go around saying "Jesus loves me just the way I am!" Then go out and get drunk every Friday night. Then go out and fornicate with whoever they want, because "Jesus died for me!"

But let me tell you folks, you're spitting in the face of God Almighty. You're trampling under foot the blood that was shed on the Cross for you. You will have no place in the Kingdom of God. But your place will be in the Lake of Fire. You will burn for Eternity. Why is it our churches are filled with such people? (Scene edit)

Drew: I'm talking about sin. I'm talking about where sinners spend eternity, as opposed to a forgiven man. You can only be forgiven by Jesus Christ. First you must repent of your sin. If you're a fornicator, you realize it's wrong to sleep around. God has written His Law in your heart. You know it's wrong to fornicate. You know it's wrong to go up to that police officer, reach into his pocket, and take his wallet. (If) You did that, what would you be? A thief. You'd be violating the laws of God; you'd be punished by a Holy God. Now folks, if you're a fornicator, if you're a thief, you violated the Ten Commandments, you dishonor your parents, you're a lawbreaker, and you deserve the just punishment of Hell Fire.

The good news is, you can be forgiven!

But all across America, there's (sic) people going around saying "Jesus loves me! Jesus died for me, and He forgave me of all my sins!" And they go on fornicating, they go on stealing people's wallets, they go on continuing in their sin, and it is a mock, and an abomination in the sight of God. Folks, our churches are filled with people like that.

Why is that? Unfortunately, the pulpits across our country are preaching that message. They preach that Jesus loves you, just the way you are. They'll throw condoms from the pulpit. I kid you not. They throw condoms from the pulpit. (Girl in audience is nodding her assent to Drew's statements.) Because it's better that they use (sic) "safe sex". Right?

Whatever happened to "righteousness"? Whatever happened to the Word of God? Preachers across the country don't even preach from the Bible. They preach their social gospel that Jesus loves you just the way you are. (Scene edit)

Drew: Have you ever been to one of those Sodomite parades? Where all the queers are prancing down the street? They're on their trucks in the floats doing perverse things? You know what they say as they go by the preacher? "God loves ME! God loves ME!" Let me tell you, folks, they get that message in CHURCH! (Scene edit)

Drew: Folks, if your life isn't honoring God Almighty, you're not a good person. You're a sinner. You broke His Law. You fornicate once, that makes you a fornicator. (If) you didn't repent, and if Jesus didn't take away your sin, that stink (sic) sin will remain with you when you stand before a Holy God. What's He going to do, when you stand before Him, a filthy, stinking sinner? He's going to cast you into the Lake of Fire. (Scene change)

Title: Leah McBride ISU student

Uncle Ed: What do you think of all this preaching you're heard here?

Leah: I don't know. I think if you have enough guts to get up there, and talk in front of all these people, if you, like, believe in it, you know, I think it's interesting.

Uncle Ed: You admire the guts it took to get up there, huh?

Leah: Yeah. I don't think I could do it.

Uncle Ed: What's your name?

Leah: Leah McBride... (Scene edit)

Leah: I don't know. I think that, he says that God doesn't love people if they're gay and stuff. I believe God loves everybody. But I think He doesn't like things you do. But He still loves everyone. I don't know. (Scene change)

Uncle Ed: What do you think of all this? Have you ever heard street preaching like this here?

Student (whose name I didn't get, but he looks and talks like someone from the Middle East) Yeah. I've seen it before. (Scene edit)

Uncle Ed: You mean he's not bothering anybody?

Student: He IS bothering, I guess.

Uncle Ed: Oh, he IS?

Student: Yes.

Uncle Ed: OK. Did you hear anything here that made you think?

Student: What's that?

Uncle Ed: Did you hear him say anything that made you think?

Student: Not exactly. I've heard it before, so haven't given it a thought.

Uncle Ed: OK. Thank you. (Scene change)

Title: Chuck Spignola, "street preacher" with Missionaries to the Preborn from Michigan

Chuck: So if people talk about "this is a choice, get your hands off my ovaries", know this: every sin originates in a choice. Every act of rebellion against God originates in a choice, and that is why God is angry with the wicked every day. Psalm 7:11 says God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.

Title: the complete verse. (Chuck didn't actually say the "and".)

Not because God is a meanie, but because the wicked know what is right, and will not do it. The wicked know it's wrong to dismember your children, and they do it anyway. So God is angry with the wicked. That's how it works.

So if you get this propaganda, don't listen to it. You can be against the murder of innocent children, but you can also be for the murder, or the execution, after trial, of Capitol Offenders. It's that simple.

Justifying Force to Stop Abortion

(Time: 29:37)

"Now there's been some talk about killing abortion doctors lately. There's been some talk about the execution of certain individuals that make their trade, or make money off dismembering and killing children.

(Interruption #1: a group of four women -- which later grew to about seven with one man -- have taken their position half way between Chuck and the Library steps where most of his listeners were, and begin chanting something. Background not given in the show: although the Missionaries consider college campuses free speech areas, requiring no permission of anyone before preaching in any place, as a courtesy they asked campus police where they would prefer they be. The police selected a piece of sidewalk about 20' from a tiny hill about 4' high, and about 60' from the front steps of the campus Library. The missionaries dutifully stayed in this awkward spot, even though only half a dozen students were gathered on the grass nearby, while ten times that many were listening from the Library steps some 60' away. Their voices were as strong as opera singers', though, so students could actually hear from that far away.

(But when the coat hanger crowd positioned themselves about 25 feet from the Library steps [they must have forgotten to ask permission of the Campus police first] and began chanting, 7 voices over one, and from so much closer, Chuck decided it was time to move towards the steps. He wound up about 20' from the steps, just inside the Coat Hanger Gals.

(Afterwards, campus police faulted the Missionaries for drifting so far from their designated spots. When I heard them thus complaining, I pointed out to the police that the Library formed a natural amphitheater which made it much easier for students to hear. They thought that an irrelevant point, against their concern for blocking "ingress and egress". That is, blocking people from going in and out. Never mind that no one ever had to even slow down their gait as they walked through the thin crowd going in and out; the police had learned these $10 words, and they were bound and determined to use them!)

Chuck: (upon realizing the Coat Hangar Gals were trying to drown him out) Excuse me, ladies, did you realize that you were interrupting?

(The crowd thought this hilarious; first that from 60' away, his voice still carried over those of the Coat Hangar Gals from 25' away; second that there was no order of speaking by which it might be determined who was interrupting whom; third that the inane charge of "interrupting" is exactly the charge which one might imagine the "polite society" most likely to be offended by Chuck, rushing to lay upon Chuck.)

Chuck: (walking to a spot between the Coat Hangar Gals and the steps) Let me see what's going on here. Just excuse me for a moment. Possibly they didn't see me standing there, preaching out of God's Word. Uh, ladies, did you know that I was speaking right there? (If they respond, it is inaudible.) OK well we're speaking, and you're interrupting. Why don't you go down to THAT end? (Inaudible response) What's the hangars for? (?) This is to show what the alternative to WHAT is? (?) We're talking now. (?) What's the hangars for? Alternative to what? (?) No, I'm asking you. Or can't you represent your position? What's your position? (?) I notice they're not talking now. How about not killing children, as an option. Does that make sense to any of you, uh, I'll use the word "ladies"? (?) I'm doing it. You want to come in and burglarize the meeting. Now I'm asking you. I'm confronting you. You have something to say, say it.

(By this time I had moved much closer, so I could pick up their responses.) Coat Hangar Large, Old Gal: (speaking with none of the humor, whatsoever, which Chuck offered by example) This is a free speech area.

Chuck: Right! So speak!

CHLOG: We're speaking.

Chuck: What's your message?

CHLOG: Actions are louder than words. (Spoken in a tone of voice that said anyone would have to be an idiot not to have already discerned that profound message! In fact, every time she spoke it was with that attitude. There was a coarse, gravelly capstone to her condescending phrases which made her speeches truly a delight to the ear.)

Chuck: Actions are louder than words. That's heavy. That's profound. You got a coat hanger. You going to hang up our shirts? (Chuck may be forgiven for not discerning any more relevance to the coat hangers than that. The message said to take one home, hang up a shirt, and relax. That's it.)

Chuck: Why don't you make a statement?

CHLOG: We are.

Chuck: Yeah. What you're trying to say is if you [don't] legalize abortion, this is the alternative. How about not killing your children? You ever heard of that? (no response) Yeah. You're heavy. You're dialogue is very convincing.

CHLOG: I have three children. I have a daughter. I don't care to have her have to use this (coat hangar).

Chuck: Well how about your daughter stays a virgin until she's married, and doesn't kill her child if she sins? You want your daughter to kill her baby? The safe and sane way? It's not very safe and sane for the child in your womb, is it?

CHLOG: It's not very selfish, with safe, or safe for a 14 year old to have a baby. (sic)

Chuck: Perhaps you should instruct your daughter not to have sex. You thought about that one?

CHLOG: Yeah, like "just say 'no' works". Let's see the statistics on THAT one.

Chuck: And if she does have sex anyway, Miss, if she has sex anyway, get's pregnant anyway...

CHLOG: I'm a Mrs. I'm married.

Chuck: Mrs, if she has sex anyway, has a baby, why kill the baby for HER sin? Why not just have her have the child and care for it? Or maybe YOU can care for it. And if you don't have the heart or love for the child for that, put it up for adoption. But why in God's name would you KILL...

CHLOG: I have three adopted nieces and I love them like they are my blood.

Chuck: Fine!

CHLOG: We're talking about CHOICES HERE!

Chuck: Yeah! Choices to KILL! What, are you going to disguise it? It's choices to murder! Don't we have any posters around here of murdered babies?

(While Chuck goes back for a poster, camera zooms in on a Coat Hangar Gal's mouth and nose, which sports a snout ring and two silver balls on either side of her lower lip.)

Chuck: Here's some right here. Let me show you the choice. This makes me sick. We've got a bunch of wit-bare, mean spirited women talking about choices. This is the choice. What do you think about this? Want to comment? No, we'd rather not speak. You take the Fifth, right? Very good. There's your champion.

Apprentice CHLOG: You spue lies and hate.

Chuck: Very good. The pro-death champions. Mute. With hangars. This is very profound. Thank you very much.

[Editorial reflections, not shared in the show: Chuck paused after nearly every sentence to give the women ample opportunity to respond. And when they responded instead as he resumed speaking, he instantly stopped to listen. In other words, he never interrupted them, but allowed them great liberty to interrupt him. Furthermore, his dialogue with them was so on point, it so well addressed their statements and positions, and he did so well at restating what they had said before responding, that he actually gave them a voice which the whole crowd could hear, greater than their own relatively weak voices could command! This was not Drew's approach.

[It worked. After addressing, and disposing of, every point they were there to make, they were left with nothing more to contribute, so he could continue his sermon undisturbed. As he continued, by the way, he walked back and forth so close in front of them that they could have reached out and smacked him. He was as much as inviting them to dialog with him again, but they had lost the heart for it. The other amazing quality in Chuck is how he could deal with this interruption, and then after disposing of it, continue on with his previous train of thought without missing a beat!]

CHLOG: You're not preaching hate, though. You're not killing abortion doctors. [Ed: HUH? This is literally what CHLOG said, so the only remaining inquiry is to imagine what she meant to say. Maybe she meant to say "WE'RE not preaching hate" or "You ARE preaching hate". At any rate, it appears even Chuck was momentarily stunned.]

(Time: 33:34)

Chuck: OK now I want to talk about a very controversial topic. I hope this makes sense to you. If it doesn't make sense, I want somebody to raise your hand and ask. You see, our position is reasonable, it's logical, it's based on justice, judgment, and equity; it's based on God's Holy Law. These women's (gesturing towards pro-abortion protesters) opinion is based on a desire to get rid of a problem, even if it means killing a baby. So when I tell you what I'm saying, I want you to ask questions. Say "Is that in the Bible?" "Are you some kind of religious weirdo preaching propaganda?"

OK, now, people talk about abortion clinics being bombed. They talk about abortion doctors, those who ply their trade in dismembering children for money, they talk about when they're assassinated (that's the word used) -- when they're murdered, all these type of people (gesturing again towards the pro-abortionists) rise up, and all of a sudden they're against murder.

Title: When an abortionist murders babies, pro-abortionists justify them. When an abortionist is "murdered", as they call it, all of a sudden they rise up against murder.

"Oh, Dr. Slepian was MURDERED! How can this HAPPEN?" And that's the cry you hear in the media. The evil terrorist has MURDERED an abortion doctor!

Do they ever show you the 40 million babies that this murderous bastard has [helped] cut to pieces for money? No. They don't say that. I'll save my tears for the babies.

I want to define for you what the definition of murder is. Taking somebody's life is not necessarily murder. For example, Capital Punishment is in the Scriptures. If a homosexual, an adulterer, a manstealer, a baby killer is captured in the act, there's witnesses to support the allegation, you try them, then you execute them. That is not "murder". That is called "justice". That keeps society in check, it keeps evil men from perpetrating evil in society. The law is made for the lawless, not for the righteous.

Murder is killing someone who is innocent, who has done nothing worthy of death. Now if a baby in the womb is not innocent, who can be?

Title: If a baby in the womb is not innocent, who can be?

A simple question: if a baby in the womb is not innocent, who among us can be?

Title: If tearing a baby limb from limb is not murder, then what is?

Chuck: And if tearing a baby limb from limb, or putting saline poisoning on his body so he gets burned and dies in the womb, or tearing him, sucking him to pieces, is not murder, then what is?

And murder is a capital crime.

And so you have these "health care providers" at Planned Parenthood, plying their trade murdering children who don't volunteer! $300 a pop, they dismember them, tear them limb from limb. "Health care provider". Now what is this, George Orwell's "1984"? This is called "doublespeak". Health care is a good thing, isn't it? Health care is something that helps a person get well that's sick. Now how do these people apply this [term] to murdering children? "Health care provision"? They're MURDERERS. They're MURDERERS.

(Camera zooms in on message on coat hangars: "Take the Free hanger. Go hoMe, reLax. hAng up your coat. [Does FMLA stand for something?])

Simply because the government does not condemn the MURDERERS doesn't make it right. Adolph Hitler had a policy that he perpetrated in Germany, and Poland, and every country that he occupied. It was a propaganda tool against the Jews. He dehumanized them little by little. He said the Jews can't do their laundry in a public area. The Jews can't frequent Gentile German stores. And eventually they propagandized Jews to the point that when they were packing Jews into the cattle cars, and running them down to the railway stations in Auschwitz, Dachau, Buchepa, and Kreblenka to be burned, tortured, and murdered, they were silent.

That's what has happened in our country with abortion. It's a lot of money. A lot of people that have had, unfortunately, sex outside of marriage, or who have been raped (at the extreme end) and want to kill their babies to solve the problem, and that is no solution to any problem.

Murder is never the method by which we solve problems. Ever.

Title: Murder is never the method by which we solve problems. Ever.

So, if somebody were to, for example Adolph Hess, or Hitler, if they were on their way to the gas chambers to drop those cyanide caps on, say, 500 naked Jewish women, who had just taken a shower, and a Christian, on their way, saw them taking the cyanide capsules to kill these people; if a Christian pulled a pistol and blew that sucker's brains out, would that be an immoral act?

Or would that be a heroic act? Would that be an act of bravery in the German culture, or the Polish culture?

Interruption #2: CHLOG is screaming possible profanities at the man behind her holding the "scarey pictures" sign. She starts in a normal tone, and quickly builds to a fevered shout, "You don't even know!"

Chuck: Excuse me. You're getting emotional.

CHLOG: (Turning to Chuck to justify her outburst) He touched me!

Chuck: (slapping his cheek) Oh! We can't TOUCH anyone!

CHLOG: How condescending is THAT?

Chuck: (To light applause and laughter from the audience) Oh, yeah, that's a big issue.

A young male who had joined the Coat Hangar Gals: (Screaming even louder than Chuck's powerful voice) There's a fine line between touch and assault, M***** F*****!

Chuck: (smiling) Oh, here we go!

Young man: I've already said my piece. (spins around and leaves)

Chuck: My goodness! (Pointing to the retreating man) You need to have your mouth washed out with soap.

CHLOG: He touched me!

Chuck: OK, you've got enough TV time, I'll give you that. Why don't you charge him with sexual harrassment or something?

(CHLOG marches off with a gait that would make a Storm Trooper drool. Chuck continues:)

(Time: 38:55)

So a man who stops the murderous Adolph Hitler, blows the sucker's brains out, is that a murderer? Or is that a man who SAVED lives? I say he saved lives.

OK, now follow me. I'm not telling you to shoot abortion doctors. That's not what I'm saying here. But what I am saying is: a man who plies his trade at molesting children, tearing them to pieces: a man stops that man, I view it as STOPPING murder. Which is a twist the media won't give you.

Title: When a man whose trade is tearing children to pieces, is stopped by another man, that is not "murder". That is "stopping murder".

If somebody came up with an AK-47 and shot this woman here, and then went to this gentleman, and started going down the row, and shooting you, as has happened in our society, since we've devalued life; if a man pulled a pistol from his pack and blew that sucker's brains out, would that be blameworthy? Or would it be praiseworthy? Would it be taking a life? Or would the overriding thing be saving life?

It would be saving life. The man would be a hero.

So I'll save my tears for the 40 million babies that have been killed, thank you very much. ....

Mini interruption: CHLOG marches up from the other side of the open area to a middle aged woman standing right by me, and says quietly "I can file charges. OK? Would that be OK?" The woman by me nods, as if to say "Sure, I guess, whatever." Title: No one was arrested that day, so I guess police didn't move very fast on her complaint. (The next day they were in the next town.)

Chuck: Dr. Slepian is responsible for killing, oh, 1400 babies a year. Counting holidays and time off. 1400 babies he's dismembered and killed. Well, guess what? If somebody stopped him from killing any more children, you know what I say? Yee-hah! (As he jumped up and clicked his heels!) (Audience light applause!)

Praise God! That's right! "And the righteous rejoice". And someday, people, this country's going to turn around. People are going to get back to their senses. The Clinton Administration era, and the wickedness that has been perpetrated since Roe V. Wade, is going to be turned over by good people. Then we're going to round up the abortion doctors, and the abortion providers, and we're going to try them, like the Nuremberg Files. We're going to try them in a court of law, and when they're found guilty, I hope I'm on the jury.

You ever been out in front of an abortion clinic? They have volunteers. They call them "escorts". What they do, is they escort their clients into the clinic, past the pleas of the Christians. "Don't kill your son!" "Don't kill your daughter!" "Please, Jesus will forgive. Don't do it!"

They usher these people, they smile in their client's faces, to try to keep their attention on killing their children. You know that these people are accessories to murder. And when this country turns around, or Jesus Christ returns, whichever comes first, I hope I'm on the jury.

You know, if this country doesn't turn around, and the proliferation of baby killing continues, it'll turn around when Christ returns. Many Christians out there, you can have that hope. Jesus is going to return with 10,000's of His saints to execute vengeance upon the wicked.

Title: Jude 14-15 ...the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of their ungodly deeds...

No more are the righteous going to be beaten down by propaganda. No more will a man who believes homosexuality is a sin, and who loves enough to point out to the homosexual that he's going to hell, no more will he feel like something's wrong with HIM. Like he's got some kind of sickness, or he's "hateful". That ain't gonna happen when Christ returns. When Christ returns, the righteous will rejoice. And they'll trod the wicked under foot, and ride them down like wheat. And all the propaganda that's been perpetrated against the upright is gonna be nothing. You think about it. It will be a great day if you are a Christian. (Scene edit)

The interpretation of Romans 13:1 by our founding Fathers generated enough courage to fight the tyranny of King George. (Scene edit)

The cry of the revolution? No King but King Jesus. We will not yield to tyranny.

...2 Kings 17:7. This is the sin of Israel, that had them led into captivity.

(Camera pans to Drew, holding the 10 Commandments sign.)

Chuck: "For so it was, that the children of Israel had sinned against the LORD their God, which had brought them up out of the land of Egypt, from under the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and served [KJV says "had feared"] other gods"...

How did they do it? Next verse says they "walked in the statutes of the heathen, whom the LORD cast out from before the children of Israel..." [KJV continues: "and of the kings of Israel, which they had made."] There's a lot of heathen making a lot of laws. I'm not going to abide by these Godless, Christ-hating laws. I'm not going to.

There is no king but Jesus. He is my King. First of all I will throw down sin in my life. And within the realm, the scope of influence that I have, God given influence, I will implement righteousness in the earth. (Scene change)

(Time: 43:50)

Uncle Ed to Amanda, as a pan of a large crowd blends into her backdrop) How many people would stand around watching, if it was a Polyanna sermon out there?

Amanda: I understand what you're saying, but I think the reason why these people are watching is because it's something that is very controversial. People are drawn to controversy. And it has nothing to do with going around screaming about who's going to go to Hell and who's not, because I don't think that, I don't think that's attracting as many people as what a different message, a more positive message, and a more accepting message, would teach.

Title: Amanda admits that controversy draws crowds, but thinks this crowd of 130 would have swelled 10 times bigger for a Polyanna sermon.

Amanda: If he came out here, and he was handing out Bibles, and he spoke of a loving God, I would be ten times more prone to go up to him and say "Hey, what's going on, you know?" (Scene edit)

Amanda: This is Amanda Green again. I was just talking about my beliefs. And what made me finally understand exactly how important my relationship with God is. And it was just being outside. And it was looking around at nature, and realizing that it was all here for a reason. And that we are all here for a reason. And that this is all a gift. And that this is all from something much bigger than what's going on here. Much greater. And that means so much to me. And I want my friends to learn about that. To me it is about a Loving Lord that you also need to fear because of the incredible power, but overall, it's just immense love, that I feel inside when I think about it, and ...

Title: Amanda believes faith like hers would benefit everyone...

(Scene change)

Young man on steps, in audience, to Amanda: So you feel, deep in your heart, that it is right to kill an unborn child?

Amanda: You know, what I feel does not matter. It doesn't make any difference, what I feel is that you have the right to know what you want,(sic) and you have the right, and all of us have the right to know WHAT IS GOOD FOR US. I'm not going to tell you what I believe myself, because that doesn't matter. I believe everybody has the right to know what is right in their heart.

Title: ...even though it has nothing to say about so elementary a question as whether murdering a baby is wrong!

(Scene change) Drew: Pretty pictures, and flowers, and teddy bears. Let's not scare people with murdered children. Let's not scare people with mangled bodies. That's what their choice (pointing to the Coat Hangar Gals) is all about. They're standing up for a woman's right to choose to murder her innocent child. They champion the cause of women everywhere to spread their legs, and fornicate. They champion the right of a woman to spread her legs, and walk into an abortion clinic and say "Here's three hundred bucks, mister; kill my baby!"

I've got rights!

(Scene change: Uncle Ed's voice, while camera zooms from a distance upon Iowa State student Travis Johnson, who let himself be interviewed later.) This is about an hour after I took those first shots. Here's a young man who was ridiculing the message earlier. I see he is still there. He doesn't seem to be arguing. He's just listening. You say you see that all the time.

Title: Daniel Clint's theory about what draws crowds to Christ

Daniel: Yeah, we see that all the time. People just hang around, and hang around. But you see, the logic. Nobody's giving them the logic they need. And they hear logic. They hear something that's coherent, that defies the foolishness in their minds. So they can't escape it. They stick around. They wait. And they listen, and listen, over and over again. They want to, sometimes, continue heckling, but many times walk away with more to think about than they got in a year in college.

My name's Daniel Clint. I've been a Missionary to the Preborn for 8 years. I've been involved with abortion, stopping it in different states, since 1987. And doing this on college campuses, this is the second year. (Scene change)

Uncle Ed: Give your name if you want to, and tell us what drew you to this show.

Travis: I'm Travis Johnson. I walked by and heard a couple of things said that made me mad, and wanted to express my views. I didn't agree with everything that was said, but I totally respect people that can stand up for what they believe, and they obviously believe a lot in what they're saying. They're preaching it. And I don't agree with it all, but I'm really glad that they can do it. It's a testimony to our freedom of speech.

Uncle Ed: You don't agree with it ALL? Then you agree with SOME? Did some of it make you think?

Travis: A LOT of it made me think. I'm not one to have the Bible pushed on me. I don't, I'm not a religious person, and, but there are definitely a lot of things that I think are making people think. Hopefully people will make them think a little bit too. I don't agree with hating people, and things like that.

Title: Travis Johnson's openness proves there are still Bereans around. (Acts 17:10-11)

Uncle Ed: You know what I think is awesome? Just getting people to sit around and debate with one another about something they care about. You don't see that very much.

Travis: (Nodding) And a lot of people they have really angry reactions, but they're still here! That's kind of a testament to Freedom of Speech. It's good to have opposing views. Everybody learns that way. Regardless of what side you're on.

Uncle Ed: Thank you very much.

Travis: Yeah. (scene change)

Nikki: (one of the Coat Hangar Gals) My name is Nikki Feuerstein, and I think that this group of people have come and polluted our campus this afternoon, with their grotesque pictures of aborted fetuses and what not. And I think they're here on our campus, ranting and raving about Christianity, and they're really contradicting themselves, because a lot of women are hurt every year in countries where abortion is not legal, and by themselves trying to give themselves abortions, with coat hangars, or certain metal objects lying around. And our point, as feminists on campus, and being prochoice, is to keep that legal right there for us, you know what I mean? So that it's safe. And so that no more women are hurt from illegal abortions and what not. So I think that this is pretty much a bunch of crap that's going on on campus today. I'm done. Is that sufficient?

(Editorial reflection: viewers will notice that during this interview Nikki showed resentment towards the missionaries, although while in the Coat Hanger crowd her demeanor was very untroubled. During the final two sentences, she lightened up, again, and the viewer gets to see her endearing smile. This makes it easy to hope that Nikki is more at home being at peace than being at war.)

Title: Nikki Feuerstein was open, too. Later, after the preaching was over and the crowds gone, she remained with a friend, questioning the Missionaries and studying their 10 Commandments poster. Her demeanor was not one of confrontation or hostility, but of interest.

(Time: 49:50)

Chuck Spignola, being interviewed while Drew continues preaching: A young Christian man came up and thanked us for our efforts. He said "a little bit too much law and not enough grace". I told him "Well, gee, I appreciate you differentiat(ing) between the two, law and grace." It's very important to use the law in ministering.

Title: Chuck Spignola explains the strategy of drawing crowds to Christ, in theological terms. In other words, it is God's strategy which concerns him.

Chuck: That's why the scene you are seeing over here to my right (Drew preaching to a large crowd) has been possible. It's because the Law of God has convicted the students of sin.

Title: "The law must first be established in the hearts of men, before they can see their need of a savior."

Chuck: You must have, first, the law, established in the hearts of men, before they see their need for a Savior. That's essential. Paul said...

Title: Romans 7:7 ...I had not known sin, but by the law...

..."without the law, I had not known sin."

He also stated that the law is a schoolmaster which leads us to Christ.

Title: Galatians 3:24 ...the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

King David cites, in the Psalms, "The Law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul. (Title gives that, and the rest of the verse, "the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple."

So our intention is to dispel the lawlessness, the decriminalization of two major social evils: homosexuality, and abortion. We establish God's Laws concerning those two crimes, and then also bring in the grace, the fact that people who have killed their children, or who are homosexuals, can have grace and mercy, if they turn from their sin, and believe in Christ. But it's that progression: law, then grace.

Title: Galatians 3:24 ...the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. (Law, then grace.)

Uncle Ed: In other words, your direct goal is to come against the spirit of relativism, that says you don't want to offend people if you have too much conviction.

Chuck: Yeah, you could say it that way, come against the law of Relativism. I always like to say, that -- which is just another way to say it -- re-establish God's Law.

Title: Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. (Law, then grace.)

Here's the reason why it's so easy to establish God's Law: because it's written on the hearts and minds of men. They'be been rejecting God's Law in their sin. So when a man comes out and exalts God's Law, it bears witness to the conscience of all men.

Title: Hebrews 8:10 (speaking of the New Covenant through Jesus) ...I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people.

And that's why we have the great advantage. We have God's Word. And you can see the effect that it has on people. (Looking at the crowds.)

Title: Romans 2:15 (even those who never heard the Gospel can) shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness...

Some plant, some water, and God causes the growth. And I trust that we've planted many seeds here today.

Title: 1 Corinthians 3:7 ...neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

And watered many. It's been a really productive and gratifying time in the Spirit, and we're hoping that naturally some of these people surrender their rebellion and get saved. But it's been real good.

(Chuck Coughs. I edited out an earlier cough, but I left this in. The reason is as a reminder that a voice able to be heard by hundreds a hundred feet away on a windy day, with other people talking, arguing, and with modern machine noises all around, doesn't come without some cost, which Chuck willingly paid.) (Scene change)

Uncle Ed: Give your name if you want.

Danette: OK, my name is Danette Allen. I'm a Sophomore here at Iowa State. I've been out here most of the day listening to these guys. It's really amazing, how so many people have come and listened.

I haven't been a Christian all my life. Recently, probably about a year ago, I decided to repent of all my sins. And a lot of the things the guy was saying, about fornication, and drinking, and you know, I've done all those things. It's just amazing to me how much God has improved my life since I repented, and trusted completely in Him. And if people around here could listen and hear that, they would understand that He's amazing, and that if you put all your trust in Him, your life is going to be full of happiness. I mean, God gives you no trials or hurt that you can't handle. He knows you're strong. He knows your strengths. He knows your weaknesses. He knows what you can and cannot handle. He won't give you anything that you can't handle.

Uncle Ed: So it must have been really encouraging, after you gave up those things, to actually hear somebody out in public saying that it's GOOD to give up those things!

Danette: I know! It's amazing. You know, my friend was out here earlier with me. And we were passing on the way to class, and we stopped and listened. It was just amazing to hear somebody else say that it's wonderful to give up those things. It's so hard to be a Christian, and to stand out in the world, and say you believe in this, and you don't believe in this, and have people throw questions at you, and not know all the answers, and try to give them an answer that they're going to understand! Or that they want to hear! Because anybody can take the Bible... (scene edit) ...use it for their own purpose. Like with abortion. Like he has been talking about the whole day, like it's the woman's choice, and you know that's a whole 'nother issue to me, but it's just amazing to me how people can twist it around to fit their sins. (Scene change)

Uncle Ed. Conclusion:

Verse 21 describes our wonderful inheritance of God's Love the way Amanda Green does, but warns us not to take it for granted, but to attend very carefully to our relationship with God.

Title: Jude 21 Keep [Gr: attend to carefully; guard] yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Jude 22 describes people who need to be reached with compassion, the approach to which Amanda Green is committed. But this verse says compassion won't help everybody, and we are supposed to tell the difference. It is people already struggling to serve God without having to be frightened into it, who need compassion.

Title: Jude 22 And of some have compassion, [Gr: to help one afflicted or seeking aid] making a difference [Gr: making a distinction]:

Jude 23 describes people who need God's Law to make them more afraid of the fire they are playing with, the approach explained by Chuck Spignola.

Title: Jude 23 And others save with [Gr: or, through] fear, pulling [Gr: to seize, carry off by force] them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. (While this shows, verse 22 remains in smaller print.)

When people can interact with a preacher, it is easier for everyone to know to whom the preacher is directing his alternating messages of the Law and of compassion. It just so happens that 1 Corinthians 14, the chapter that tells how to run a church service, describes such interaction: not a lecture where interaction is not allowed.

Title: 1 Cor. 14:1 ...desire...that ye may prophesy 5 I would that ye all...prophesied...31 For ye may all prophesy one by one 39...covet to prophesy...

And today we have seen fulfilled the promise of verses 24-25 of 1 Corinthians 14, which says that kind of interaction has a way of prying open the hearts of unbelievers. I guess when they see their false gods brutally attacked, they speak up out of real concern, and if a preacher is there with a reply from God, a seed is planted. In a traditional church service, no one is allowed to interact, of course, so unbelievers just walk out.

Title: 1 Cor 14:24 lf all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not...he is convinced of all...25...the secrets of his heart made manifest...he will worship God...

Shall we indeed encourage everybody to make up their own minds whether to believe God is right in regarding abortion as a terrible sin? If you could go back to the time Eve was considering the forbidden fruit, and if she asked you if you believe it would be wrong to eat, would you tell her, "It's not important what I believe. You have to decide what you believe"? Well, you stand where Eve stood, deciding whether to believe Satan who is telling you to not trust God, but to make up your own mind about what is right and wrong.

Title: Genesis 3:4-5 ...the serpent said...God doth know that in the day ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

And for you as for Eve, generations after you will be affected by your choice.

If you see your child toddling towards a busy street, would you say "Oh, Johnny, I don't want to tell you whether I believe you should come back from the street, because what I believe doesn't matter. If you choose to go into the street, I still love you, and accept you just the way you are, which will be Roadkill in about 10 more seconds." No! You do NOT love your child, if you talk to him like that! Love will run, and grab, and roar, when it sees a loved one in danger!

A murderer's heart has to work very hard to shut out the love of God, just to commit the murder and then afterwards to keep from collapsing in guilt, shame, and repentance. Could you shut out God's Love enough to kill your very own baby, and then even want to spend eternity surrounded by God's Love? It's not a good risk.

(Show credits rolling: The Uncle Ed. Show is sponsored by the Family Music Center 4110 SW 9th 244-3711 11-6 Mon-Fri 11-4 Sat. Band and Orchestra instrument rentals, repairs, music. Write to the Uncle Ed. Show at or visit our website, Are you a musician? Amateur to pro? Join the Uncle Ed. Show Family Band! Watch the Uncle Ed. Show 9:30-10:30 PM Tuesdays, 4:30-5:30 PM Saturdays.)

The judge says "You've got your rights! I know because I created them for you!" while the missionary says "Repent! (which means) Turn back! There are forces on that road you are about to travel which you don't understand, bigger than you are, and if you keep going the same direction, you are going to wind up roadkill!"

The End

On the Cutting Room Floor: "How shall we view the theology that we as a nation don't have to make up our minds on abortion; that each individual has the freedom to decide, or as the case may be, to never decide? Well, God's Word says abortion is murder. What shall we tell each other as we stand before God: "Don't worry about Him, you just decide for yourself whether abortion is good"?

But America is paralyzed by indecision. Intentional, calculated, rationalized indecision about what is wrong, which provides a convenient excuse for doing wrong, until we can get around to deciding. Jesus hates indecision. He said Revelation 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Elijah tried to get his nation to make up its mind. Peter Marshall Sr, former chaplain to the U.S. Senate, was quoted in Life Magazine as adding a little bit to Elijah's plea, to help make Elijah's meaning clear: 1 Kings 18:21 How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him -- and go to Hell!




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